The Usual Suspects

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
26 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

The Usual Suspects

JMix
SUPER MAJOR PLOT HOLE (MAJOR SPOILER)

The entire premise of the film is a complete conceit of the writer and the director and really makes no sense when thought about clearly.

Instead of waiting to be bailed out on a minor weapons charge (which is eventually what occurs) Verbal Kint decides to spin a wild yarn about Keyser Soze, a legendary master criminal. Agent Dave Kujan, the person questioning Kint never asked about Soze and had no idea who he was.

Had Kint sat quietly and waited to be bailed out or lawyered up (or for that matter simply escaped as it was clear that he wasn't injured in the explosion on the ship) then none of the completely fabricated tale he tells would have had to been necessary.

As it was, at the end of the film Agent Kujan knows that:

A) There is a Keyser Soze
B) What he looks like

SUPER MAJOR PLOT HOLE (MAJOR SPOILER)

Verbal Kint reveals who "Keyser Soze" is roughly 20 minutes before the end of the film.

When someone ask what language the sailors around the ship the team is about to hit are speaking, Kint speaks up and says that it is "Hungarian." There's no reason for him to know this unless he's heard this before and is familiar enough with it to recognize when he hears it.


Plot Contrivance (SPOILER)

Agent Kujan never looks around the office while Kint is telling his tale. If he had , then he would have realized that Kint was drawing his story elements from wanted posters and items around the room.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

egullo
Dear JMix
My comments in capital letters.

SUPER MAJOR PLOT HOLE (MAJOR SPOILER) The entire premise of the film is a complete conceit of the writer and the director and really makes no sense when thought about clearly. Instead of waiting to be bailed out on a minor weapons charge (which is eventually what occurs) Verbal Kint decides to spin a wild yarn about Keyser Soze, a legendary master criminal. Agent Dave Kujan, the person questioning Kint never asked about Soze and had no idea who he was. Had Kint sat quietly and waited to be bailed out or lawyered up (or for that matter simply escaped as it was clear that he wasn't injured in the explosion on the ship) then none of the completely fabricated tale he tells would have had to been necessary. As it was, at the end of the film Agent Kujan knows that: A) There is a Keyser Soze B) What he looks like
POLICE WOULD HAVE EVENTUALLY KNOWN ABOUT KAYSER SOZE FROM THE SURVIVOR'S STORY AND HELP WITH THE ID SKETCH. VERBAL KINT IS REALLY GOOD AT MANIPULATING KUJAN IN MAKING HIM BELIEVE HE JUST CAN'T BE SOZE, AND HE NEEDS TO NECESSARILY MENTION HIM. IT'S A RISKY PLAN BUT IT WORKS. MOVIES DON'T TELL THE ORDINARY, BUT THE EXTRAORDINARY. IT'S NOT EVEN A PLOT CONTRIVANCE, IT'S JUST A CHARACTER CHOICE YOU DISAGREE WITH. HOW CAN YOU CALL THIS A SUPER MAJOR PLOT HOLE??

SUPER MAJOR PLOT HOLE (MAJOR SPOILER) Verbal Kint reveals who "Keyser Soze" is roughly 20 minutes before the end of the film. When someone ask what language the sailors around the ship the team is about to hit are speaking, Kint speaks up and says that it is "Hungarian." There's no reason for him to know this unless he's heard this before and is familiar enough with it to recognize when he hears it.
IT'S NOT EVEN A PLOT CONTRIVANCE, IT'S JUST A CHARACTER CHOICE YOU DISAGREE WITH. HOW CAN YOU CALL THIS A SUPER MAJOR PLOT HOLE??


Plot Contrivance (SPOILER) Agent Kujan never looks around the office while Kint is telling his tale. If he had , then he would have realized that Kint was drawing his story elements from wanted posters and items around the room.
SERIOUSLY, WHY WOULD HE SCAN AROUND HIS OFFICE WHEN HE HIS ENTIRELY FOCUSED ON LISTENIGN TO HIS WITNESS??

MORE IN GENERAL, JMIX, BY READING YOUR OCEAN OF POSTS: YOU SHOULD READ THE WEBSITE DIFINITIONS AGAIN. YOU CAN'T JUST CRY SUPER MAJOR PLOT HOLE EVERY TIME YOU PERSONALLY DISAGREE WITH THE STORY PLOT! YOU SHOULD WRITE YOUR OWN SCREENPLAYS AND BE A MILLIONAIRE.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

JMix
Your comments are such a waste of my time that I'm no longer going to bother responding to them.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

egullo
That proves me right. Thanks JMix.
Besides, there are other readers who might find a debate interesting.
Regards
egullo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

Manni
Wow, what an arrogant reply by egullo. "You don't want to respond to my insane assumptions so therefore I'm right". Well if JMix doesn't want to play, I will.

Super plot hole #1: Kint's re-telling of the events.

Please re-read this:

-------------------
Had Kint sat quietly and waited to be bailed out or lawyered up (or for that matter simply escaped as it was clear that he wasn't injured in the explosion on the ship) then none of the completely fabricated tale he tells would have had to been necessary.
-------------------

Kint was about to be released anyway, there was no reason to go into such a long-winded imaginary story except for the fun of it. If he sat there and said nothing, the rest of the movie would have played out exactly the same: Kint is released, the sketch from the survivor comes through the fax, Kujan realizes that he just let Keyser Soze walk out the door.

The distraction bought him no extra time at all. If anything, telling the story only kept him there longer and increased his chance of getting caught.


Super plot hole #2: Kint knows Hungarian

It's a two-part problem that Kint shouldn't have known what the sailors were speaking beforehand, and even if he could overhear them, Hungarian isn't a common language for someone to know here in the United States. If it were Spanish, maybe it could be easily overlooked, but since Kint's American accent implies that he's been here all his life, it should raise some red flags that he can identify Hungarian specifically. Maybe you can explain what you mean about this being "A CHARACTER CHOICE".


Plot contrivance: The stuff in Kujan's office

If you've ever had an office of your own, you intimately know what is on every wall. You spend 40 hours a week there, maybe more (especially in the case of a police detective), and everything on those walls is most likely things you put up yourself. When someone starts dropping numerous references to those things, a police detective of all people should have caught it!


I do find debate interesting. You however don't like to debate, you spew your opinions and condescend people who don't agree, as shown by your insulting summary paragraph at the end of your first post. Grow up man.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

JMix
Thank you
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

mendal
In reply to this post by Manni
Kint was about to be released anyway, there was no reason to go into such a long-winded imaginary story except for the fun of it.

EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT THEN THERE WOULD BE NO MOVIE.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

egullo
In reply to this post by Manni
Manni is right, I raise my hands.

I shouldn't have said that. I should have limited my comments to the movie, instead of going "personal".
I would have accepted if JMix pointed that out to me, but he/she didn't seem bothered by it.
JMix, on the other hand, replied that my comments on the movie are a waste of time, which is a totally different thing. He/She should have used arguments to counter my comments.
Anyway I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant, I was just very annoyed by it.

Back to the movies:

I agree the character could have done differently, but that doesn't make it a plot hole! Not even a character mistake. Yes, Kint didn't have to do that, but perhaps he just want to satisfy his huge ego and get a thrill out of fooling an experienced cop on his own turf. But movies, I repeat, portray the odd and the extraordinary, especially characters, otherwise there would be no movie.

According to JMix basically every movie he/she's seen is a pile of nonsense. And I am the arrogant one?Please let's relax, breathe normally and read the website definitions again.

We would never see any movie if we wanted to see only the very ordinary of our daily lives portrayed in them. We wouldn't see for instance any adventures at sea, because the character didn't have to go on the sea the day of the storm and could have decided to stay home warm and sipping hot tea... If you love movies, you understand what I mean.

Regards

egullo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

Manni
JMix definitely inspects a lot of movies to a level that most people don't, and it might seem too nit-picky in some cases, but they at least deserve some dialogue in case they're being put in the wrong category or have alternative explanations. His dismissal of your points was likely a reaction to your personal comments, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. I respect your response egullo, especially when I can easily fall into the habit of being unnecessarily aggressive when I'm on a board. Anyways, moving on.


I think the problem boils down to what people expect out of movies. Most of the time I try to turn my brain off and just enjoy the story. Sometimes movies are so bad and illogical that I just can't enjoy it (Battlefield Earth).

I still enjoy The Usual Suspects and I don't want to take that away from anyone else, but it does bring up an interesting point that it doesn't have much purpose. Most or all of the events in Kint's story didn't happen, so what you're actually watching is 2 hours of a guy making random crap up for the purpose of having some fun with the cops. It's still a compelling story since it shows how smart he is, and how a murdering psychopath can slip into the part of a meek cripple, but the point still stands that there wasn't any necessity or higher goal to it all.

Consider a movie like Primal Fear. If you haven't seen it, I'm about to spoil it.

It's very similar to The Usual Suspects where the guy you thought was timid and weak ends up being a fake persona to cover the killer inside, and he's telling a made-up story to throw everyone off the trail. But ultimately there was a purpose to it, it helps get him off the hook for murder!

Instead what we have is a situation like Raiders of the Lost Ark. It's a great movie, very entertaining, but the main character doesn't do anything to change the outcome. Everything they say and do leads to exactly the same place as if they hadn't done anything at all. My girlfriend works in script development, so she notices a lot of things like this which means now I do too (lol).

I hope nothing about this site makes someone lose their appreciation for a movie. I just like the idea that a screenwriter will take more thought and planning into consideration when they come up with a story. Not every film has to be The Shawshank Redemption or The Godfather, I like the dumb movies too like Crank and the Resident Evil series. Usually I just ignore the plot holes in those because they're not really meant to be taken seriously.


I don't necessarily think JMix hates "every" movie, it's just that this is a site based on the flaws we find in them so that's all you'll see out of the contributors. Kinda like if you're on a marine biology messageboard, you'd expect to see a lot of discussion about fish. So I pose a question to JMix: what are a couple movies that are close to perfect?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

JMix
No, I don't hate every movie; in fact a number of the ones whose plot holes I put on here I actually enjoy and I have seen many times. That's how I can see where the film's internal logic is failing or the entire premise of the film is so fatally flawed that it renders it impossible to suspend disbelief.

No film has zero plot holes, plot contrivances, unaddressed issues or retroactive continuity problems. However,IMO, the following films work harder on telling their story so that you don't notice them or they don't matter as they tell an entertaining story:

1) Lawrence of Arabia
2) Bicycle Thieves
3) Burmese Harp
4) Rashomon
5) The Godfather
6) The Godfather II
7) 8 1/2
8) Kind Hearts and Coronets
9) 2001: A Space Odyssey
10) The Third Man
11) Elmer Gantry
12) Paths of Glory
13) The Searchers
14) Ran
15) All Quiet on The Western Front
16) Double Indemnity
17) The Lion in Winter
18) Malcolm X
19) Chinatown
20) Raging Bull


There are dozens of others; but those are among the top in my opinion as even though they have minor plot holes or mistakes ( Malcolm X asks some to call 9-1-1 20 years before the service came into being) you don't notice as they tell a terrific story.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

egullo
In reply to this post by Manni
Thanks for your reply Manni
Although I totally agree it boils down to what individual expects of movies, however that shouldn't prevent even the fussiest contributor to sticking to website definitions. A good point of discussion is always welcome, but we just can't keep crying "super major plot hole" every time we would prefer a character do or say otherwise! Most of JMix's "super major plot hole" posts are not even character mistakes, they certainly do not contradict the logic of individual scenes or characters, let alone of the entire plot.
See for instance one of my latest replies to JMix:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear JMix
I come in peace.
My comments below in capitals:

MAJOR PLOT HOLE When Carrie gets her new phone (she threw her old one in the river) she claims that she no longer has her old number. There's no need to change your telephone number when you lose your cell phone. The cell phone provider will simply transfer your old number to your new device.

TRUE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR NUMBER BUT YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO RETAIN IT EITHER. SHE MAY HAVE HER OWN REASONS TO CHANGE HER NUMBER. CERTAINLY NOT ILLOGICAL. NOT A PLOT HOLE.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to us, Manni, I think there's a clear link between the sheer abundance of JMix comments, as you pointed out, and the quality of them, as you normally can't simultaneously excel at quality and quantity.
I get slightly irritated as a reader because it all sounds very patronising to movie lovers, as if we utter losers never realised we are constantly and punctually taken for a ride every time we watch a movie.
It would be easier to take if JMix actually cared to reply using arguments, but he/she rather reply that the simple fact you dare comment, makes you a waste of time. I think it's a bit too much.

Thanks anyway
All the best
egullo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

JMix
Here's an idea: Why don't people use the message board for its stated purpose, which is to point plot holes in films? That would be better than attempting to show how "intelligent" someone thinks that they are by complaining about the postings of others.

CONTRIBUTING is the purpose of most forums.
Complaining about contributions is useless and self-indulgent.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

Beartown
In reply to this post by JMix
I always thought that verbal/keyser soze told Kujan that whole story to pin everything on Keaton because he knew Kujan had a vendetta against him...... There was no way for verbal/soze to know that his picture wouldn't of gotten to the detectives until he posted bale.....
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

egullo
In reply to this post by JMix
No JMix

Each box to report a plot hole has got a "Reply" option.

Discussions are allowed in the forum.

That includes pointing out that a plot hole may not be such. At least let it be put to discussion.
And there's most definetely more than one.

Your "idea" is to kill discussions. I'm sure very few people will agree with you.

egullo
p2r
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

p2r
In reply to this post by Beartown
Wow - Beartown actually has is a pretty good point I think, and I think it counters part of the OP about the plot hole - that Verbal would have been far better off if he just shut up and got bailed out of jail.  Since Verbal didn't know that there was a survivor - who was also a witness - his whole excessive story becomes an attempt to pin the blame on Keaton, as Beartown says.  After all, if anyone could have made sure that Keaton's body could never be found or identified, it is Verbal.

If this is true, it makes it especially silly that Verbal would make up names that the detective would discover were fake (sooner or later), but it does explain why Verbal was "spinning a wild yarn" - to lead Kujan to tie the name Soze to Keaton in official records, thus freeing him from suspicion.  This might well be worth the risk of staying in custody an extra 20 minutes, since (with no knowledge of the survivor), Verbal would have judged the risk of detection to be low.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

Shaneoo88
In reply to this post by JMix
"Instead of waiting to be bailed out on a minor weapons charge (which is eventually what occurs) Verbal Kint decides to spin a wild yarn about Keyser Soze, a legendary master criminal. Agent Dave Kujan, the person questioning Kint never asked about Soze and had no idea who he was. "

Kint was being interviewed because Agent Kujan had a hard on for Dean Keton who he thought organised the explosion to fake his death. He was conviced he is still alive. He wanted to get Kint to turn on him.

Kint talks about Keyser Soze because...the Bulgarian survivor started yelling the damn name out. That is what caused Agent Kujan to ask about Soze. Kint didn't just bring it up for the sake of bringing it up, the evidence from the survivor forced him to to bring it up. Kint knew that Kujan had such a hard on for Keaton that he would assume he was Soze.

Kujan knows what Soze looks like, but he has no idea who the people that work for Soze are. Soze doesn't operate in public, he went public this time because of the guy who cut a deal with the authorities.



"Verbal Kint reveals who "Keyser Soze" is roughly 20 minutes before the end of the film.

When someone ask what language the sailors around the ship the team is about to hit are speaking, Kint speaks up and says that it is "Hungarian." There's no reason for him to know this unless he's heard this before and is familiar enough with it to recognize when he hears it. "


There was a survivor of the explosion in the hospital...speaking Bulgarian. Before Kint starts talking about Soze, there is the black cop talking with the BULGARIAN SURVIVOR!


"Agent Kujan never looks around the office while Kint is telling his tale. If he had , then he would have realized that Kint was drawing his story elements from wanted posters and items around the room. "

The last thing a cop will do when interviewing a suspect is start looking around the room inspecting objects that have been there presumly for most of the time Kujan was using that office. His job is to focus on what the subject is saying, to see that persons body language.

I don't know you at all, but I don't think you concentrated well enough when watching the film. Your analysis of parts of the film are not what actually happened.

For example, you siad Soze decies to spin a wild yarn about Keyser Soze when it is the evidence from the Bulgarian survivor that makes Soze a topic.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

"Kujan's" office

C Walker
In reply to this post by JMix
Kujan was based in NYC, I think. He was using another man's office. At least, that's how I remember it. So he wouldn't know what was in it.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

Aaron
In reply to this post by JMix
It was Sgt. Jeff Rabin's office. Kujan had flown in and insisted on talking to Verbal in Jeff's office, despite his protests. There is even a name plate on the desk.

Also, from what I noticed, there were only five references in the room: the quartet in Skokie, the large person, Guatemala, Redfoot, and Kobayashi. Frankly, if there's something I doubt, it's how Kujan could have pieced it together. The large person and Guatemala are very generic and were each mentioned just once. Had there not been Verbal's voice in the background, those wouldn't have clicked for me. The quartet, Redfoot, and Kobayashi were more prominent motifs in the movie, but Kujan didn't look at his coffee mug - he dropped it. Plus, not many people know what brand their coffee mug is.

That leaves just the quartet and Redfoot, both of which were not very emphasized on the wall. Remember, only the audience had the luxury of seeing the base of the mug, Verbal getting back his lighter/watch/cigarette, the Soze sketch, the fading limp, plus many other hints throughout the movie - one of them being his slip up about knowing Hungarian. Kujan was not privy to all those clues when he figured it out. I think it's very reasonable that Verbal thought he would get away with it. I can't speak for others, but I know I was pretty convinced it was Keaton. I think it's impressive enough that Kujan figured it out at all, let alone when he did.

And as far as Soze knows, he had Kujan fooled. Soze operates on the premise that he doesn't exist. That's why he went to great lengths to set up the other four criminals - to kill the one person who could identify him. After it was clear to Verbal that the survivor was going to make sure Soze's existence is known and that he gets caught, Verbal manipulated Kujan into believing that Soze was dead by implicating Keaton. And Soze thinks he was successful. He has no reason to believe Kujan suspects him. But, if Soze were to discover that Kujan had figured it out, Kujan would likely be his next target.

"A rumor's not a rumor that doesn't die." -Dave Kujan

"It all makes sense when you look at it right. You gotta, like stand back from it, you know?" -Jeff Rabin
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

Beartown
Good show Watson!   Eat a dick j mix
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: The Usual Suspects

Alex
In reply to this post by Aaron
My question is this.
As far as i understood, Verbal had already told this story to the DA or somebody else (he says, "it's all there [in the file]. May I have a cigarette?"). And we know, this is the first time he is present in this office.
So how could he tell this story before in DA office using details, that were on the wall in police office?
12
Loading...